Tuesday, May 5, 2009

Let Us Read Together

I have this month's issue of my church magazine - The United Church Observer - right here, and within it's recycled and responsibly printed covers you can find both what I love about belonging to a liberal Protestant denomination and what makes me want to knock myself deliberately into unconsciousness about THE VERY SAME THING.

Let us begin with the Letters page!
First we have one reader complaining about the heinous and obnoxious changes to CBC Radio 2, and another reader complimenting said horrible changes. The second letter writer is wrong.

The Rev. Douglas C. Moore writes: Did you not perceive that the people who organized the atheist ad were hoping that some church group would denounce it? Did you think it clever to try the old "turnabout is fair play" trick? I don't take atheists for fools. The current crop is not playing at it.... God is not running for office. Belief is not a popularity contest.

I have to sit here and be depressed for a moment. The United Church of Canada has spent a lot of time trying to engage atheist groups in ways which I think are foolish and naive beyond words. I don't - you'll note - engage in religious debate online, because people who WANT to debate belief are not normally people who want to have their views of the opposing side changed. No, online religious debaters are generally people who think that the other side is either a bunch of banjo-plucking toothless hillbilly morons OR the eternally damned (and I'm not saying that's what all religious people or all atheists think - of course not! - but people who go seeking out debate online? GENERALLY, YES.). And I don't think that's a profitable conversation, REALLY.

Onto the My View column, where the author writes about Chicago's Willow Creek Church which calls itself an Acts 2 church, and then goes on to describe the United Church as a James 2 church:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?
Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and
daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and
well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the
same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.


Well, all right. But that also just reduces the message of Christianity to "Be a nice person and help other people!" which is also the message of kindergarten. The whole issue of salvation has apparently been discarded by the United Church as not befitting a people as sophisticated and worldly as ourselves.

Then there's a piece where the a minister scaldingly replies to a questioner who was hurt by a reference from the pew referring to the Nativity as "a myth". "This is an issue of your need to grow in the faith... Grow beyond your Sunday School understanding. Mature in your faith," chides the writer. And then I said something that I won't print on my blog.

Here's an article you can actually read, which writes about the some of the positives of our current economic good times - everyone being too poor to go anywhere means fewer air flights, which is certainly a good thing for the environment, and perhaps this will give us all some time to rethink our lifestyles and consumption patterns, although my wild consumption patterns have been limited for most of my adult life to buying groceries on a weekly basis. It also says, in a piece of startling understatement, "For those on the front lines, being philosophical can seem a bit of a luxury." YOU THINK?

Sheesh.

Onto "Windows on The Divine" - Five Canadian artists who "take us into the realm of the infinite", starting with... oh, for Pete's sake, Leonard Cohen. Moving on!

Next up, we have Margaret Laurence, who I have not read since high school, but who is part of my stirring argument that in order to be a female writer, you really should be named either Margaret or Alice. Huh, she was a practicing Christian. I did not know that.

Anne Michaels is next. Perhaps her MIDDLE name is Margaret or Alice. The article quotes here as writing that "God can be called "getting over fear." I stared at that sentence for a while and then dismissed it.

Blah blah blah, Glenn Gould and painter of mucky landscapes, Emily Carr. My mom had me read "The Book of Small" as a youngish sort of person and even now the title makes me flinch away from the twee.

Sad article on Native Residential Schools. There's the big shell of one of them not too far from here, Mary standing forever alone in a niche, her face grieving. And I'm going to stop at the sad article, since it reflects what I do love about my church - the attempts to be honest about past wrongs, the attempts to honestly atone for things that have happened. I do not believe that earnest niceness will save the world, but I am touched by those who do. I DO think that attempts to be culturally relevant can end up undermining the very fabric of faith, and at the same time I'm glad that there IS a church that welcomes a wide variety of people and beliefs. The magazine, however, is kinda lame.

26 comments:

Mary-LUE said...

Okay, I can breathe now, the post has been written and I have read it!

I really enjoyed reading it. I've been coming across, for various, Facebook related reasons, different points of view on Christianity, different movements, etc. Christian anarchy, animal abolitionists (abolishing animal enslavement, not the animals themselves), Episcopalian priests who do things like replace the Easter vigil with: Kindling the Ancient Fire: Sharing Stories of Life-Death-Rebirth Receiving the Sacred Fruits of the Earth.

So, it is interesting to ponder all this, read your post, and to reflect on exactly what it is I believe.

And I have pretty much decided that religion, politics, all of it. Don't DEBATE or QUESTION anyone who feels strongly about it, especially online. It will NOT go well. At all. (Recently made this mistake)

CDP said...

Outstanding post. And you are SO RIGHT about online religious debate. Those who engage in it are for the most part interested only in provocation.

Bon said...

lol. i'm the agnostic-ish sort who actually quite likes the Observer...probably the very pieces you don't, in opposite proportions. plus i like Leonard Cohen. erm, LOVE Leonard Cohen.

perhaps they're not doing a bad job engaging the atheists after all? they did get me to church a few times this past year for the first time in decades...

Karen said...

I also get quite curmudgeonly about my Protestant church. I rather enjoy a good rant from time to time - and still can't imagining having church without all those voices which sometimes make me nuts. I can only assume that I am making them crazy as well....

Beck said...

Bon - I found your comment remarkably cheering. Perhaps there ARE ways to engage people. Perhaps there is a space where people can meet. It is a lovely thought.

Jennifer (ponderosa) said...

The other day on World Have Your Say, a BBC program that plays on my local radio station, they debated whether religions discourage feminism -- whether they keep women down. It was like the worst of the online religious debates. I'm all, what if every single caller said YES, religions keep women down. THEN WHAT? It was not debate; it was a fight with no possible resolution.

Aaaanyway.

Jennifer (ponderosa) said...

BTW I'm agnostic and I read your blog & love it. So you could say your blog is a space where people can meet.

flutter said...

I pretty much think you rock, Beck.

T.Allen-Mercado said...

Beck, you are so refreshingly REAL. I'm a...I don't know. I was raised by hippies...I guess that's a Pagan.I studied theology for four years at a Jesuit university, but I only practice love. (read practice=struggle). As long as I continue to struggle with loving communication, I will refrain from religious and political debate online and in person.

Oh, and I was wondering if you were going to go with Margaret or Alice? I'm undecided, so I'll take whichever of the two is left. ;)

Bea said...

I decided awhile back that since it seems to come down to the choice, I'd rather go to a church where people are more conservative than I am rather than one where they're more liberal. Because stuff like that magazine makes me want to scream. (The "mature in your faith" line about the woman who believes in the Nativity especially. The James 2 thing too.)

a Tonggu Momma said...

What? James 2 is not something I should aspire to? Huh. So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong all these years. I guess I'll have to break out of my obnoxious patterns of behavior and (cough, cough) strive to become nice.

heidi @ ggip said...

Thanks for bluntly pointing out the bit about online religious debate. I agree completely.

What I find so interesting about this magazine is the letter to the editor type debates they present. That is not something I have seen before in a magazine such as that.

Mimi said...

The concatenation of the ideas in the last two sentences? Love it!

painted maypole said...

enjoyed this post, and am pondering the women's magazine of my church... i love love love it (Usually) because it so progressive, although apparently most Lutherans regard it as a "liberal rag"

but the actual magazine put out by the church. I completely ignore it. very boring and unchallenging and "la la la... this group raised money for this and la la la... expanding youth participation and la la la...."

Cyndi said...

I like to have religious conversations, but not debates. When I was a teenager I really thought I could convince people to see things my way. Now I know! And knowing is half the battle.

I have a lot of stong views about faith, like a lot of people, and so I understand why you don't go into some of those areas on your blog. I would love to have a conversation with you, though. See things from your perspective. I am very conservative, too, but I like to see WHY people view things the way they do.

Allie said...

Calling the Nativity a myth is ... growing in your faith??? I would have called it quite the opposite.

The thing that bugs me about articles like that is the words they use - trying to reduce the other side to immature, stunted in their growth, unintelligent, unthinking. Always arguing that the church should have more compassion, more love, on people outside the church and then treating people WITHIN the church with disrespect. Argument of the kind, especially in a Chrisian rag, should be fair, and less vain.

But enough of that, I'll just betray my closet wanting-to-debate-faith nature :)

Heidi Ashworth said...

The Leonard Cohen comment was priceless.

Heather of the EO said...

I like Bon's comment. Because I forget sometimes. I mean, I'll think that a certain approach to these discussions is just totally annoying, and even wrong. And then I'll remember that anything said might be just the thing someone needed to hear in one particular moment. It works for them. Maybe not for ME, but for them.

I even think about that with evangelism. You WILL NOT find me out handing out tracts on a street corner, but I guess it takes all kinds of messages for all kinds of people.

I really do feel like I make no sense when I comment here. Bye.

Veronica Mitchell said...

One the nativity thing - reminds me of a conversation from a pastor of my denomination. The question was "Did Jesus really rise from the dead?" And her answer was, "That's a difficult question to answer." And I muttered a vulgar word for coward.

Because it isn't a difficult question to answer. The answer is yes or no. What was difficult was finding a way to say "no" while maintaining an appearance of remaining within historic orthodoxy. That was so difficult, it was damn near impossible.

I think liberals and conservatives have things to say to each other. But I think it is disabling to the church for them to maintain a denomination together (like mine does, too). Denominations and congregations are not just "places to meet"; they are also expressions of identity, and it is profoundly excluding to have only the "progressives" dictate our denominational identity.

Sorry for the mini-rant.

happygeek said...

"Oh for Pete's sake, Leonard Cohen. Moving on" had me laughing out loud. Glad someone else feels that way. I had to read Beautiful Losers for a class in University and still cannot fathom what would posess someone to write that.
Loved this post.

Sus said...

This is hilarious. My church newsletter is sitting in my inbox waiting to be read. But I'm pretty sure it does not include a minister chiding his congregants to grow beyond their Sunday School understanding and mature in their faith. Are you kidding me?

PS. A very good friend recently named a baby girl Margaret James. First thing I said: clearly a future author. Best yet: they're calling her Maisie. Can I get an "awwwww."

Decadent Housewife said...

Sounds like UCO wants to publish an arts magazine.

planetnomad said...

I don't put religious views online either. Online is the wrong forum. I'm far too nuanced. Plus I need body language, and I need to be able to talk and listen and interrupt and be interrupted in return. And even then we might not agree but we can still be friends. Online forums don't seem to lend themselves to that sort of reasonableness.

And here, I go to a church where we have every stripe of protestant available--from liberal to conservative to charismatic. But there's only one church; no other options. And we have some interesting discussions, but we all still worship together.

His Girl said...

"which is also the message of kindergarten"

*fell off the chair giggling*

Carrien said...

It's posts like this that convince me that we would be very good irl friends if only we actually ever met irl or lived close by.

OF course, I assume that I would be good friends with a person who exhibits very similar thought processes, though not always similar conclusions, would be someone I'd like to be friends with.

Great, now I sound like a total goof. Oh well.

Jennifer said...

How in the world did I miss this post? It was a great read. You make me laugh and think at the same time.